Toyo Ito, architect (2)

In late 2010 or possibly early 2011 I interviewed the Japanese architect Toyo Ito for Architecture Week magazine. It was a face-to-face interview at a venue somewhere in Tokyo (I will consult my diary later to clarify these details). Here is a cleaned up version of the text I sent to the magazine.

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Liddell: A very simple question to start with. Maybe the answer will be complicated. How do you feel about being awarded the Praemium Imperiale?

Ito: Of course I'm very pleased to receive that prize, but at the same time I want to be as young as possible, both as a person and as an architect as well. Getting the prize is like stepping up to the next stage, but for my next challenge I want to stay as young as possible.

Liddell: So, what you're saying is that the prize makes you feel a little older?

Ito: Yes. Now, compared to when I was young, it is difficult to say whatever I want to say to the architectural society and to other people. Because of all the prizes, it's a little bit difficult to speak up about whatever I want to say. Nevertheless I'm very glad to receive the prize.

Liddell: So you've become part of the establishment?

Ito: Well, I have always liked the establishment, of course, and from my youth I have looked forward to receiving such honours, but at the same time I feel nostalgic for my younger days as well.

Liddell: I wonder if Sophia Loren felt the same way. I guess you must have met her at the prize awarding ceremony.

Ito: I was very happy to see her.

Liddell: She's aged quite well. I guess she's probably a bit older than you. Is that right?

Ito: Yes, she's 76.

Liddell: Wow, it's hard to believe.

Ito: She looks very young.

Liddell: Looking at the previous winners of the Praemium Imperiale architecture prize, who do you most admire and why?

Ito: It's actually a very difficult question to answer because if I look at the rest of the prize winners, I find rivals and mentors and other people, so it is very hard to choose whom I most admire. But from those honoured there are only two people who have already passed away. One is James Stirling and the other is Kenzo Tange. Those two especially were very impressive architects for me. Kenzo Tange was also professor when I was a Tokyo University student.

Liddell: When you think of Kenzo Tange, what comes to mind? What kind of image do you have in your memory?

Ito: When I was a student, Yoyogi Stadium was under construction. That was very impressive for me. I think that was the peak of his career. After the 1970s, he got a very big name and got other commissions from other countries, and he didn't have many such commissions in Japan, so his career after that was a little bit disappointing, but his career in the '50s and '60s was very much impressive, and the buildings he designed then must remain as masterpieces of architecture.

Tange's masterpiece -- Yoyogi Gymnasium

Liddell: Are you making a distinction between the work he did in Japan as good, and the projects he did overseas as not quite so good?

Ito: It's not like what he did in Japan was better than what he did abroad, but he kind of reached the peak of his career before the 1970s and after that his peak had passed.

Liddell: So perhaps his creativity became too diluted or thinly spread?

Ito: I don't think it's just about his own personal creativity to create great architecture. It's really related to the economy and also who was working for him. There are many processes involved to make architecture. But the time of the '50s to '60s was special for Japan. There was the economic boom, so in that time Kenzo Tange was the perfect architect for the moment. The man and the era came together.

Liddell: Regarding the Praemium Imperiale, the selection process is a bit mysterious. I'm not sure how they decide. Why do you think you were selected for the prize this time?

Ito: I don't know. I want to ask them the reasons. This prize is not for the man of the year or the person who did something this year. It's not like that. It's a kind of lifetime achievement award. So, it really depends on the jury. I'm really not sure why they chose me.

Liddell: So, looking back at your "lifetime achievement," which of your projects are you most proud of?

Ito: If I have to choose one, it would of course have to be the Sendai Mediatheque.

Liddell: What is it about the Mediatheque that makes you so proud of it?

Ito: It's mainly because it changed the whole way I think about architecture and society. Before this project I didn't think society actually expected much from architects. My idea was that we didn't really have much of a social impact. But after that project, I actually watched what happened at the Mediatheque, and the people who used that space really enjoyed that building and it changed their behaviour, so my thinking towards architecture and society completely changed. 

We have a project in Europe. I felt something different there, as if European people really expect something important from architecture, but here in Japan, the architect's role is thought of in more limited terms. But, after Sendai, attitudes started to change. I started to think that if I make an effort to create something, then it will have more social impact and be accepted by society.

Mediatheque: plan

Liddell: So, through the Mediatheque, you widened your horizons and realized there were more possibilities and effects from architecture?

Ito: That's right.

Liddell: Talking about the Mediatheque, I read somewhere you had some disappointments with the Mediatheque. In particular, the "diaphanous swaying webs" you imagined on paper became much more rigid and bulky. Is this true?

Ito: Maybe you have read this sentence somewhere in a book or something, but it's a little bit different. At the time of the competition for the Sendai Mediatheque, it is true that we were considering very delicate, very beautiful tube-like structures, and that during the process of design and construction, they became more thick and strong. But this wasn't a disappointment for me, as I enjoyed the way that the actual Mediatheque developed in contrast to some of the aspects of the design, especially as the strength of the tube and structures were important. It is normal, I think, for architecture to change during the entire process.

Liddell: As you suggest, there is of course a certain tension between creative imagination and realization. When you take things from the mind into the physical world, a lot of adjustment has to be made. How conscious are you of that? difference? Do you fight against it or do you actively expect it to be different?

Ito: That process from creation to realization is very difficult to explain, because, generally speaking, when I imagine something, there's no gravity and there's nothing restricting imagination, but when we embark on the process of realization, we have to enter the real world. In this respect also, the Sendai Mediatheque was key to me. When I first imagined the Mediatheque, I wanted to create a beautiful space and beautiful architecture, especially because, at that time, I didn't think society really expected anything beyond 'architecture' from architects. I had that attitude, but the process and the realization changed my mind, because, during the process of planning and building, there were actually many people against the design. I had to fight to convey my vision to the wider society and spread its appeal. After it was completed, it may have been different from the originally envisioned space, but the architecture now had more sharply defined appeal for the people using the building. Imagination, creation, the process – it's actually very difficult to explain the gap, but in the case of the Mediatheque, my thinking and attitude to society and architecture changed

Liddell: So, in the case of Mediatheque, there was a very strong dialogue between the different aspects, first between idea and realization, then between the plan and the public reaction, and then between your ideas and the critics of your ideas?

Ito: Yes, definitely.

Liddell: It seems that there was a lot of pushing and pulling.

Ito: Including the people who were against the Sendai Mediatheque in the loop, then incorporating that within my own mind, then looking at architecture as part of a social process – that was actually the first experience for me. I had designed and completed other public buildings before, but the citizens hadn't really been involved in the process much. Instead, just the mayor would come to the opening and make a speech saying, "This is very unique building, blah, blah." After Sendai something changed.

Mediatheque: realisation

Liddell: So it sounds very Hegelian – thesis, antithesis, synthesis. From the struggle, something new is created.

Ito: Yes, yes! That's right!

Liddell: To focus on the details, what form did the opposition take? What kind of criticisms did people actually make about the design?

Ito: The users who were going to work in the library and the gallery were really against the design because they couldn't imagine how such tubes in the structure would work. Their way of thinking was that if it were just a normal structure with conventional columns and walls, it would be more convenient for placing books and hanging paintings on the wall. For them it was very difficult to respond to the Mediatheque space, because they assumed there was a room for this and a room for that, and this is how space is used, so it was very difficult for them to imagine how they could actually use the space, the tube structures, and the space. The biggest characteristic of the building is there are no walls within the building, dividing it into rooms, so after it opened, many interesting things happened. For example, there was a workshop by students, and just next to them there was a computer seminar for the elderly with no wall between them. The old people were actually very happy being with the young people, so I heard that their fashion actually changed to reflect that of the young people.

Liddell: Your architecture is sometimes described as an attempt to blend the virtual world and the actual world, meaning you create a very media-sensitive architecture, but what kind of problems does that create?

Ito: In answer to your question, this question is not only about the architecture. In society now, there's much information – the virtual and the physical have merged not only in architecture, but also in other aspects of society. For example, when you go to a restaurant or somewhere, you actually find the information you need from the internet or something. We are covered by information and we are also influenced by commercials as well. But, at the same time, physical reality -- how we feel about the food -- changes, so both the virtual world of information and the physical realm coexist in the 21st century. Architecture has to respond to that, and the architect has to respond to how people use the architecture and the comfort and usability. There have always been elements of the virtual and the physical in architecture, so it's not about mingling the virtual and actual. It's just a very natural thing that the virtual and the physical co-exist at the same time.

Liddell: In previous ages, the typical house was built around the fireplace. You'd have a big fire and everything was built around that, or focused on that. Now the internet, computers, video screens, etc., are much more important. Just today I was walking past a convenience store and they had these large plasma screens in the window playing advertisements. That's the kind of thing we never saw before. Could we say your architecture expresses an aesthetic appropriate to the society we now live in with modern media and internet technology?

Ito: It's a very difficult question, but, of course, as you said, nowadays people don't gather around the fireplace. The internet has replaced that position and everybody acts very cool and detached. They don't get together and do the same thing. That means there's no central point in this society. There are multiple points and people just move through as it pleases them. With the Sendai Mediatheque, it's not the place where all the information gathers. People just like go to relax and maybe read some books. It's not like the centre of the media, but more like a free central point of the city.

Liddell: How does it change people's behaviour?

Ito: It facilitates unscripted behaviour. For example, in the library people can take a nap on the sofa or the bench, while on the other side people can eat a lunchbox. They actually feel free within this space. I want to create a kind of new salon of the society. In the case of Sendai, the citizens have come to accept the centre as a new symbol of the city, as one of the central points of the city, but also somewhere they can use very freely.

Liddell: From your explanation, I get the feeling that your architectural philosophy is a kind of inversion of the old Metabolist idea of architecture, which believed that buildings should be designed to be flexible and constantly change to suit human needs. Of course, your buildings don't move around and alter themselves in accord with Metabolist principles, which is frankly a kind of unrealistic idea, but instead your architecture allows the people to be flexible, and so promotes human flexibility rather than structural flexibility.

Ito: Yes. Exactly!

Liddell: So, can we say that your philosophy has been inspired by Metabolism, but that you've taken it to a different place?

Ito: Yes, that's correct.

Liddell: A few months ago I went to the "Where is Architecture?" exhibition at the National Museum of Modern Art. Generally, I was not so impressed by this exhibition, but I enjoyed the display that you prepared. It was based on your design for the Deichman Main Library competition in Oslo. When I saw this display, which emphasized geometry, I got a strong impression that you're very interested in mathematical properties. I got the feeling that you enjoy the mathematical side of architecture. How true is that?

Ito: I'm very happy about your comment regarding that exhibition. On the night of the opening, I went to dinner with the young architects involved in that show and I made a really harsh speech, strongly criticizing them. As the exhibition's title was "Where is Architecture?" my question to them was the same: "Where's your architecture?" I think that I'm very serious about what I make for tomorrow, but they seemed a little bit more complacent. I wouldn't say they're relaxed, but maybe they're not serious. Making something for tomorrow is a very serious thing for an architect, but I didn't have that impression from their exhibits. To answer your question about mathematics, I really want to change the geometry of architecture, because now I am interested in finding something between architecture and nature, using the new type of fractal geometry. As you said, I really enjoy the mathematical aspects of architecture. It is true. I really feel that way. In the office we don't yet know how to apply the new geometry to the real world of architecture, so we are wrestling with this.

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Liddell: You are critical of the architects at the "Where is Architecture?" exhibition, but which young architects do you actually admire in Japan at the moment?

Ito: One is Sousuke Fujimoto and the other is Akihisa Hirata. Both of them are around forty.

Liddell: I saw Fujimoto's recent "Future Visions -- Forest, Cloud, Mountain" exhibition at the Watari-um and was very impressed by it. What particularly do you like about his approach and his style?

TOD's Aoyama

Ito: Mr. Fujimoto has the approach of "future primitivism," which is a kind of similar philosophy to mine. In society right now advanced media is all around us. Perhaps because of this we also have a strong craving to feel the primitive, natural side of life. In this way, I feel there is a common philosophy between me and Mr. Fujimoto. With Mr. Hirata, he doesn't have many built projects yet, but also we share the same outlook. He used to work for my firm before, on the Tod's building in Omotesando, and also the Taichung Opera House, which is under construction right now. He had an installation for Canon at the Milan Salone this year and last year. Both the geometry and design were very interesting.

Liddell: Right now the Japanese economy is pretty stagnant and the country seems to be under a malaise. How does this effect architecture and what is the way forward?

Ito: There are not many architectural competitions in Japan now, and architecture is in a bad way. This situation makes architects go abroad to work. But we also have to think about our construction skills and ability. The craftsmanship here is very, very high, especially the construction workers. We shouldn't lose those people -- for example, the workers making the concrete forms and steel rods. It may not be a particularly respected job, but those people have exceptional skills. For example, when we made the Tod's building, they used three-dimensional computing programs and made the very complicated forms. From my experience, this level of skill and techniques only exists in this country. Also, at the same time these techniques and skills also point the way towards new architecture. Tod's Aoyama and the Tama Library are really good examples of this. Without these really good workers we couldn't have achieve that.